How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

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How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#1 Post by Dontefan » Thu May 23, 2013 7:37 pm

What do people here on PB think in making one list to adress the problems and what was lacking in DmC as a Devil May Cry game?

From what i've see in other threads, it's a general consensus for most of the users here that DmC is a shitty DMC game. Do any of the experienced DMC3 and/or 4 players have interest in digging up for real and good explanations about why DmC failed?

I think there's a lot of effort to make the DmC look less like a shit around the internet and making it look like the fans of the original series is reponsbile because it bombed on the market. So i think would be good for us to summarize all thing in one text and just copy/paste whenever one DmC fan or casual retarded try to make a point about this game.
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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#2 Post by Jebryath » Fri May 24, 2013 2:47 am

From the start, Capcom made it clear that they regarded the DMC team a failure. (This for unknowable reasons, since DMC4 is one of their all-time best sellers.) As a result, I made the assumption that DmC wouldn't be a DMC game and waited for them to sell me on it. They didn't succeed.

It's not worth the time to try and pick apart every single detail. They sold the game by saying it wasn't going to be DMC.

Honestly, though I haven't played it, it sounds like quite the ride. If nothing else, Ninja Theory established themselves as one of the forerunners of bad taste with their rifle-based abortion.
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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#3 Post by Dontefan » Sat May 25, 2013 10:36 am

I can understand that, Jebryath. But NT and Capcom kinda promised the game would be good for DMC fans and it went kinda like with DmC totally replacing DMC, and it kinda fucks things for us DMC fans. I don't even know what is Capcom reasons for giving up at DMC even if DMC4 was the best-seller of the franchise, i really can't see where or how it failed in what it would be interesting for Capcom (profit), but i can see some things that DMC4 is kinda lacking in its design for sure, mainly in the enemy design to be honest (i think the bosses compose most of the "lacking" here, the enemies seems mostly OK at the same time that their design seem to be highly focused on Nero's gimmicks).
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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#4 Post by Shadow » Sat May 25, 2013 7:24 pm

dmc4's enemy design is far, far, faaaaaar better than dmc3's. they improved greatly in that aspect, so I don't really find it lacking at all for dmc standards.
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Seriously, fuck those awful shields.

#5 Post by Super Dante » Sat May 25, 2013 9:24 pm

I thought DMC4's bosses were a lot better than 3's, even if they felt designed for Nero's arm. I don't remember any extraordinarily shitty shields besides Blitz and that priest dude (both of which can go fuck themselves several times over).

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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#6 Post by Psychochild » Mon May 27, 2013 7:17 am

I thought DMC4's bosses were a lot better than 3's, even if they felt designed for Nero's arm.
I fail to see how, seeing as all the bosses DMC4 Dante goes up against has Busters unusable for the vast majority of the fights and the Devil Bringer's only function is as a less effective Air Trick until the bosses get stunned. Credo doesn't even allow you to snatch on the fight anyway (Memory serves he just counter-attacks with a dash), but you can use Busters more often as a trade-off which, y'know, big whoop. They're not earth shattering in that fight except when you break Credo's shield.

The only boss that's designed for Nero's arm is Sanctus because you need to use Snatch on the orbs to reach him and it's one of the bosses Dante can't reach without the debug mode anyway.
dmc4's enemy design is far, far, faaaaaar better than dmc3's. they improved greatly in that aspect, so I don't really find it lacking at all for dmc standards.
Yep. DMC2 and DMC3 are about on par with their enemy design with DMC3's enemies only having the benefit of being in a game where the player character is leagues more mechanically engaging.
at the same time that their design seem to be highly focused on Nero's gimmicks
See the boss comment above.

With the exception of the Cutlass and Basilisks (Of which the latter is a minor edge to Nero due to the sheer effectiveness of a DT Basilisk Buster), Dante often has significant benefits over Nero. Charge Shots and Gunslinger Moves help him eliminate the defensive barriers of Fausts, Mephistos, and Chimera enemies much more efficiently than Nero. The Blitz is an enemy that is destroyed ridiculously fast with Royal Releases as well as using Royal Guard to parry the counter-shocks. Angelo Shields are in a similar boat with Royal Releases. All of these enemies get their defensive measures wiped out regardless with Omen and Dante has the benefit of being able to juggle heavier enemies with Charge Shots, something Nero can't. Combine this with Dante's much superior mobility options that gives him an edge against the Gladius as he can cover more distance quicker than Nero's Snatch and stun enemies from ridiculous distances with the Shotgun (Especially Fireworks) and... what, you have Frosts and Assaults which could go either way with Dante possibly having the edge with those giant REAL IMPACT ME ice crystals Frosts like to retreat to.

Fact is, Dante's nearly always the superior character to handle any baddie in the game efficiently. People who say enemies are designed with largely Nero in mind are people who are just awful with Dante.
What do people here on PB think in making one list to adress the problems and what was lacking in DmC as a Devil May Cry game?
That's an obvious question.

-It's a poor game riddled with obvious design flaws that were addressed in other games that NT had to be aware of because they were already stealing elements from them left and right.

For instance: Bayonetta made lock-on almost entirely optional and to compensate, always gave Bayonetta an on-screen indicator of the soft-lock target. All directional inputs made while the soft-lock is in play (Read: Forward Forward Melee Stingers, Away Forward Hair Attacks) will recognize the input and auto-correct it to attack the soft-lock target that is always apparent on screen. Guess which game nixes Lock-On, fails to give any on-screen indication of Dante's current target and leaves such inputs to God to figure out resulting in me never wanting to use moves like Streak or Million Stab because they can't be depended on?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fdyLahqEQIw

-It's a game which made itself immediately clear just by playing the demo that there never any significant Q&A ever performed on the game. Ignoring how basic mechanics like Demon Dodge completely broke the game's mission ranking requisites and trivialized boss fights to the point where the most efficient option is to exploit said basic mechanics to no end (LOL ONE SHOT DT DMD HUNTER), I managed to find a memory leak in the demo just by replaying a single section a number of times to come to terms with the way combat worked in the game that dropped the framerate into the single digits. Poison will kill you for no reason if you try to do something obvious like Angel Glide to avoid hitting the grapple points because those are stupid and annoying because it somehow assumes you're still on the platform she destroys. Drop for some reason still doesn't award style points when JC'ed in the PC release of the game though it does on consoles.

There was also a clear latency trying to weapon-switch which seems ridiculous in a game all about free-form combat.

In the full release, I've broken the Hunter's scripting (Something very easy to replicate) by using Ebony and Ivory at a point where to sustain damage and your combo USING those guns are the only option Dante has at that point in the game. Vergil finds a new way to break every time I try him. Enemies behave sporadically, occasionally ceasing to animate as they slide across the floor when I play. Doing something which was a core mechanic to momentum in DMC4 (Sky Star against a enemy) confuses the game if it can't figure out a single straight line to spit Dante out of as you can see in the above video. Enemies have occasionally refused to spawn despite restarting checkpoints losing me progress on several missions.

I really wish this was all hyperbole.

-Deciding that a game that was all about free-form combat should regularly feature enemies that are entirely immune to parts or the vast majority of your arsenal. Guns in this game are already bad enough, why should they be useless against heavies/shielded enemies/weapon immune enemies? Why in a game where every weapon you have is so devoid of mechanical depth (Or actual moves in general) would you impose an arbitrary limitation on baddies that only serves to highlight how poor these weapons are? And then to make the only way to distinguish them be shades of color that show up endlessly in the game's colored lighting that makes me on numerous occasions second guess whether or not something will work until I take a swing at it?

What the Hell, guys? I hate to imagine how color blind folks will ever be able to tell the difference between a ghost rage and a normal rage on the Bob Barbas stage without dropping angel stance.

-DmC is a game that is 100% derivative of previous games in the series without adding any new interesting systems to offset the copious quantities of features axed for the sake of "Streamlining" the game. Take a moment and try to think of a gameplay feature that is wholly unique to DmC. If your answer isn't weapon branching combos, you're wrong.

Now try to think of any stand-out moves that are interesting and unique to DMC. If the answer is anything except Buy-In and Ricoshot, you're wrong. Challenge me on this.

This leads me to my final point.

-DmC is a game that feels like it was made in spite of the original series by people who both resented the fact that there was an action game that required finesse and technique to make super impressive looking combos by gutting any mechanic that hinged on that sort of thing and were TERRIFIED because they were clearly in over their heads and did nothing to take advantage of an entire gameplay reboot to actually innovate.

Off the top of my head, Royal Guard is out in favor of parrying attacks with weapons that have insanely generous hit boxes and active-frames on their attacks. Exceed, something that was never a Dante feature (BUT NEITHER WAS SNATCH) is nowhere to be seen. Aerial combat itself has been drastically overhauled to be drop dead simple. Enemy depth was reduced from DMC4 which encouraged a great deal of experimentation due to the vast array of tools Dante had and large movelists that made them largely self-sufficient, fun adversaries to go up against (With exceptions of a few Agnus Demons) to something much more on-par with DMC3 where every enemy had a specific niche and were designed as such due largely to technical limitations of the time. Grim Grip sections were made completely idiot proof and make up FAR too much of the entire game. Weapons were streamlined from having at least one weapon which invited significant experimentation and drastically affected how you played the game in 3 and 4 (Nevan and Lucifer respectively) to having their depth be immediately apparent and fully explored in about five minutes time (The demon weapons even quicker than that, as they have barely half a normal devil arm's movelist each).

And what do they throw in to compensate? Heavenly Sword's stances which just end up making the controls even more cumbersome than DMC4's especially if, God help you, you want to make use of the game's guns with any regularity.

That's all it is when you get right down to it. It's a follow-up made by people who didn't understand and never even bothered to try to understand what other people found so engaging about the old games.

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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#7 Post by DelusionaryKiller » Mon May 27, 2013 10:22 pm

I agree with the majority of Psycho's points.
Bayonetta made lock-on almost entirely optional and to compensate, always gave Bayonetta an on-screen indicator of the soft-lock target. All directional inputs made while the soft-lock is in play (Read: Forward Forward Melee Stingers, Away Forward Hair Attacks) will recognize the input and auto-correct it to attack the soft-lock target that is always apparent on screen.
Thank you! As for someone who has never played Bayonetta (but I might someday), that feature is worthy to be considered.
I have thought about this before. People have defended the lack of lock on because it "makes the combat more fluid" and that if I pull myself towards the wrong enemy, it's my fault for because I didn't "press L3 to switch targets". The problem with this is that I NEED an indicator to show which enemy I'm going to pull myself to, regardless of it being soft-lock or not. My solution to this problem with DmC? To shoot the enemies with E&I, switch targets if it's shooting the enemy I don't want to prioritize with until I'm shooting the enemy I want to pull myself to. This is stupid, ruins the flow of the gameplay and is an excuse to use E&I besides cancels and killing enemies which can only be killed by guns. This dismisses the "HURR DUR SOFTLOCK IZ MORE FLUID" bullshit. If I had Lock On in the first place, I WOUD NOT need to shoot E&I because I'm already prioritized to an enemy, the only way to lose track of my enemy is by removing my finger from the Lock On button, which again, isn't present in DmC.
Another thing with the lack of Lock On: the lock on display showed the enemies health in the previous DMCs, and was way more accurate by the time DMC4 came out. I've only heard ONE review to address this issue, ONE.

So how does knowing your enemy's health a benefit?
-To know which enemy is which. Let's say you damaged an enemy by a certain amount. If for any reason you lose track of it, you can always look at the Lock On display, and switch targets until you find the enemy with the same health you left it off.
-Know how to finish an enemy off. In the DMC world, you'd want to give a stylish demise to a demon. You wouldn't want to finish it off with a rebellion slash, but something "explosive", such as Helmbreaker.
-When an enemy is at low health, you might want to end him in heavy damage attack (lower damage attacks usually give you less points), but with a high amount of style points. This is useful in SS ranks and leaderboards.
-You have a limited amount of attacks until you kill off an enemy. I use this to improvise and map out a combo from the amount of health left so I can make the most out of the enemy.

Then there is the enemy mechanics, something I NEVER heard anyone talk about, especially in reviews.
DMC has improved throughout each installment, especially in DMC3/DMC4. One of the things it improved upon are the enemy mechanics, a massive improvement. Take DMC4's Angelos as an example; they didn't launch with Ecstasy (the Lucifer rose attack, a launcher), instead it stunned the enemy. Or that Angelos were never knockedback with a shotgun blast, unlike other enemies. This set a new layer of depth and skill in the series. There wasn't much in DMC3, but when you're talking about DTed enemies, the possibilities of combos increases drastically.
In DmC, pretty much every enemy is the same (from what I've seen, I never played the full game), no unique mechanics, only the enemy which has something similar are the so called Dreamrunners, which attack while in combo. This has been done before, but is a lot harder to use in combos: Chimeran Assaults or Chimeran Scarecrows can attack when being attacked. The only small differences are the elevation in which Donte enemy steps, which is something minimal.

From what I've seen, the bosses are shit in DmC. DMC4 improved the boss battles greatly, just check out Credo or Dante's boss battles, they're milestones away from DmC. It gets even better with a DMC4 Dante VS Dark Dante battle .

Difficulty sucks. ALL DMCs can beat DmC in this, DMC is notorious for this. You can get 3 deaths and still SSS a mission, where as in the DMC series, if you die, it greatly goes against you. Just taking a small chip of damage can prevent you from getting an SS rank (except in DMC4).

Airtime is like if Donte was on the Moon. It is too easy to gain height, stay in the air, and be efficient. They shouldn't have made it easier than it was in DMC4. To me, DMC4's air stuff was the limit, it took skill to remain effective in the air for long periods of time.

From what I've seen, enemies aren't such a problem, they don't overcrowd you in DMD mode, and are easy to deal with. In DMC3 it was hard to get enemies off your back (probably the smaller areas contributed to this too), they attacked frequently, and when it was in DMD mode, DTed enemies were a pain to control unless you had moves like Ultimate Tempest.

The color coded enemies, my gosh, just by seeing videos of a red and blue demon make me cringe. What is worse is that there is no LOCK ON!! You can prioritize on one enemy by shooting those disks thingies with Aquila to the blue guys, disabling them, and move to the red demons. It's stupid. At least in DMC4, you could take out an Angelo's shield, and combo off him with no problems, BUT if you didn't, they would recover and could attack you. Both ways had it's unique style, one is a long combo, while the other is a lot of air-like-tag.

There is a lot more, but I'll just leave it at that. If anyone says DmC requires more skill, has more combo depth (which I think DMC3 might be beaten by this), is more difficult, or has a higher adrenaline factor (just better gameplay than DMC3/DMC4 in general) they're idiots. Sadly there are still people out there who believe this (1 like 1 prayer for these souls, everyone).
And as people have said, it would have been better if they never called it a Devil May Cry. On it's own, it's an above average hack n' slash in terms of gameplay. That's it, everything else is mediocre. Then we have the DLC, bugs and the developers' attitude, which killed DmC a lot.

There is a shit ton, but I'm tired of typing, so I'm done. There might be some grammatical error in this, so take it easy if you spot one >_>
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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#8 Post by Psychochild » Tue May 28, 2013 12:33 am

I have thought about this before. People have defended the lack of lock on because it "makes the combat more fluid" and that if I pull myself towards the wrong enemy, it's my fault for because I didn't "press L3 to switch targets".
That's a very easy argument to rebuke. Simply challenge them to perform combos in a room full of regular enemies (Read: More than one) that involve lots of DMC3/DMC4 Trickster-style play on a single target where Dante's positioning is constantly jumping back and forth across the playspace. Eventually without fail Dante will lose track of their targets because any combo that doesn't have Dante standing next to a single target and mashing out attacks will end up with him inadvertently losing track of the primary target as new ones wander between it and him.

A lock-on system that falls apart the second you try to make Dante's combat fluid and kinetic can't in ANY way make combat more fluid.

ODDLY ENOUGH, it also makes every combo read more like a DMC3 combo video than anything you saw in high-end DMC4 play ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTAyFeh6XWU&t=15m41s ) which doesn't do much to deter my theory that NT's examination of DMC's combat mechanics when designing the core systems in this game started and ended with the DMC3's Truestyle Tournament Swordmaster rounds.
There wasn't much in DMC3, but when you're talking about DTed enemies, the possibilities of combos increases drastically.
The enemies are still one-dimensional sandbags that serve a single, very narrow niche that depend upon the presence of other enemies sharing the same space to be a reasonable threat more often than not. A mechanic that makes it harder to interrupt these attacks and makes it very clumsy and non-intuitive to launch these enemies doesn't necessarily improve things. DMC4, while it had similar systems made it feel much more intuitive to pull off launches when I expect them without having to learn some ridiculous invisible launch point system ON TOP of having better, much more interesting enemies.
Airtime is like if Donte was on the Moon. It is too easy to gain height, stay in the air, and be efficient. They shouldn't have made it easier than it was in DMC4. To me, DMC4's air stuff was the limit, it took skill to remain effective in the air for long periods of time.
It'd be interesting if other enemies were designed to take that sort of ease of aerial combat into consideration and had far more anti-air measures much like DMC4 did where unlike 3, the developers recognized jump cancels and gave everything at least some fashion to knock Dante out of a single jump height with ease. Unfortunately, all ground-based stygian-style humanoid monsters have no anti-air to speak of and nothing to really counter aerial buy-ins making the game even more of a joke.

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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#9 Post by Dontefan » Tue May 28, 2013 1:30 pm

About the enemy design in DMC3 and DMC4 i was talking just about something similar to this thing you pointed out:
The enemies are still one-dimensional sandbags that serve a single, very narrow niche that depend upon the presence of other enemies sharing the same space to be a reasonable threat more often than not. A mechanic that makes it harder to interrupt these attacks and makes it very clumsy and non-intuitive to launch these enemies doesn't necessarily improve things. DMC4, while it had similar systems made it feel much more intuitive to pull off launches when I expect them without having to learn some ridiculous invisible launch point system ON TOP of having better, much more interesting enemies.
Just for the sake of you letting you all know this: i've only played DMC4 in Devil Hunter and SoS mode until now because i originally played it on an X360 of a friend and i don't really have bought the game until now (i got my PS3 last year) to beat DMD and really see how most of the bosses plays out were they are meant to be a real challenge.

In DMC4 you can mostly launch and juggle to death every single enemy with some exceptions like Blitzes, and to some extent Mephistos and Fausts. And, for the most part, this is what makes DMC3 harder than DMC4, you can't just rely on your execution to fuck with one single enemy like one Fallen or even a group of Arachnes, you have to know their patterns rather than just sustain one juggle state on them to finish them off, think about Enigmas too, in DMD they're pretty much the enemy that you will want to kill ASAP because they can be a real pain in the ass if they DT. And the bosses in general i think that DMC3 has a more fair share of challenging bosses: including Beowulf, Vergil 3, Jester, Geryon (if you ignore the possible loop with SM), Arkham (if someone say he's more annoying than difficult, i would agree, but still i think this fight has his share of challenge). While for me the most challenging boss fights in DMC4 were Credo, Echidna to some extent and Sanctus II (that fucking annoying barrier), Bael and Berial are pretty easy in Devil Hunter and SoS kinda the same level of Nevan and Cerb. But i'll play it in DMD to exhaust as soon as i get the game (i'm planning to get it after day 30 this month) and see if things changes drastically on some boss fights.

And about the Nero's gimmicks with DB: it's not like the enemies are exclusively made for Nero to fight, but for the most DMC4 does not present any enemy that makes us feel like exploring too much the whole switching on the fly style system and Nero can fight all of them easily too, i think they could have worked this better making enemies that are hard to reach like Mephistos and Fausts and hard to hit like Blitzes. But i understand that Capcom like fucked up DMC4 as a whole by rushing the development and killing that potential it had to be miles better than any other DMC entry, taking that it into account makes look like DMC4 have the most well-designed enemies, as even with little time they managed to create enemies that you can have different approachs and explore at least some features of each style besides being easy to stick up with just two or three of them. To be honest, i think that DMC1 monster are the most well-designed of the all franchise, all of them are able to really fight back and even the Marionettes and Blood Marys have some ranged attacks and diverse moveset in general compared to Scarecrows or the Sins in DMC3

Also, i've read most of your opinions about DmC and agree with most of them, later i'll add some complains of my own about the combat system in general and how the design choices they made fucked up things and leaves pretty much little room to improvement unless you make a fucking mess with the weapons and d-pad buttons. And that thing DelusionaryKiller mentioned about the enemies being for the most part the same shit all the time is quite true, the game is dumbed down to a level were you are quite forced to use the grappling mechanics as they give you an obvious great advantage with nearly all enemies in the game, or you just can stunlock them to death with Aquila, there's a lot of unbalanced moves in the player's moveset overall and they did a poor job on the hitboxes of the game for the sake of easy crowd control. The bosses are really shit, not even one boss can be considered a real fight in that game, some backgrounds and colors popping right in your face are more difficult to deal than the bosses themselves.
Last edited by Dontefan on Tue May 28, 2013 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#10 Post by Shadow » Tue May 28, 2013 2:13 pm

Hmmm. I felt more "threatened" in mid air while playing DMC4 than in DMC3, somewhat. Maybe it's because I find the attack cues to be not as obvious.
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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#11 Post by Dontefan » Tue May 28, 2013 2:21 pm

Shadow, try to get a combination of Vanguards and Fallens or Soul Eaters and Fallens/Vanguards. It's pretty much doom to rely too much on JCs fighting with these enemies, some other enemies can easily hit you in the air like the giant Arachnes and Dullahans too (even if they are really a joke while using Royalguard).
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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#12 Post by Volteccer_Jack » Wed May 29, 2013 3:51 am

I'm only chiming in to talk about DMC3/4, because after playing it, I find it impossible to care about DmC in any real capacity. It is the only completely worthless game I know of.

If you want me to make a list of dumb/awful stuff in DmC, just think of ANY random thing from DmC. Doesn't matter what thing. That thing is incredibly awful, or at the very least, incredibly boring/buggy/lazy. Art design, music, enemies, movelist, story, the sound effect when Dante lands (actually I don't remember or care if the game has a sound effect when landing from a jump; if it does, I guarantee it's some combination of lazy/boring/buggy/awful). I don't actually want to know what the developers were thinking, because whatever it is would either be horrifyingly stupid or just horrifying.
Dontefan wrote:Shadow, try to get a combination of Vanguards and Fallens or Soul Eaters and Fallens/Vanguards. It's pretty much doom to rely too much on JCs fighting with these enemies, some other enemies can easily hit you in the air like the giant Arachnes and Dullahans too (even if they are really a joke while using Royalguard).
Vanguard+Fallens, Soul Eaters+Fallens, and actually, most of the interesting DMC3 enemy combinations, never ever occur during the normal story mode. Normal enemies only ever appear in super-boring combinations, assuming you even get more than one enemy type in a given fight. "Lusts AND Sloths! Wow! The Devs sure are imaginative!" It's one of the reasons DMC3 is not very hard (it only appears hard because you die a lot the first time you play it).

But umm...you should never get hit by a Dullahan under any circumstances (lol why do they even exist). Arachnes only have two moves remotely likely to hit an airborne Dante, one of which requires Dante to be below maximum single-jump height (and at that height, you get all the disadvantages of being airborne and none of the advantages, so you may as well land), and both of which have painfully obvious cues. Basically Soul Eaters are the only thing that can reliably hit airborne Dante in DMC3, and even then jumping is still one of your safest choices (normal jump is the best move in DMC3).

DMC4 enemies make being in the air about a million times more dangerous. On the other hand, Dante and Nero are extremely well-equipped, both more able to move around in the air to avoid threats and also more able to attack from the air, so unlike DMC3 Dante, they're not helpless when someone does attack them in the air.
In DMC4 you can mostly launch and juggle to death every single enemy
This is not even slightly different from DMC3.

You want me to blow your friggin' mind?! Quick, load up DMC3, and go to a fight with Fallens. I believe M15 starts with a fight against 2 Fallens. Now follow these instructions and prepare to have your brain explode out of your nose as you come to understand how ridiculously limited DMC3 enemies are:
1--Wait for the first Fallen to take a swing at you. Time a jump so that your invulnerability protects you from the swing, and then Helmbreaker the Fallen. Done correctly, his shield will instantly break.
2--Repeat step 1 for the second and third Fallen if necessary. Once all Fallens are shieldless, move onto step 3.
3--Make sure Rebellion is equipped, and then put the melee attack button on autofire until all the Fallens are dead.
4--Tell me more about how DMC3 has good enemies, so I can laugh in your face.
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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#13 Post by Psychochild » Wed May 29, 2013 5:27 am

And, for the most part, this is what makes DMC3 harder than DMC4, you can't just rely on your execution to fuck with one single enemy like one Fallen or even a group of Arachnes, you have to know their patterns rather than just sustain one juggle state on them to finish them off
Patterns? The Seven Hells get two attacks each at most. Their pattern is to move close and swing. The Damned Chessmen get two attacks at most each and their only gameplan is to get Dante into their line of attack. The Bloodgoyles can only charge. Enigmas have only two firing arcs which are completely trivialized by having the right tools. Soul Eaters have only two charge attacks. Abyss have all of three attacks which... honestly, give them the same amount of utility as a Leg Scarecrow in DMC4 minus the zoning lunge on knock-back they have.

The greatest challenge in DMC3 isn't so much fighting those enemies, it's remembering where the Hell the troublemakers are and making a point to not completely screw yourself with a less-than-ideal load out when you stumble them. This is pretty much Enigmas (Nevan/Spiral) and Fallens of which they're all very few and far between among the sea of things you can combo almost mindlessly (Hells, Chessmen, Bloodgoyles, Soul Eaters (They have so little health they're rarely a threat) and Abysses so long as you remember to not knock them back which... if you're comboing them you tend to avoid anyway).

Arachnes are the most mechanically involved enemies, but they're also extreme outliers compared to the rest of the enemies in that they require you to be awake and they're harder to cheese (Though they're also very easy to get into a hit-stun infinte with Dante and ESPECIALLY Vergil).
And about the Nero's gimmicks with DB: it's not like the enemies are exclusively made for Nero to fight, but for the most DMC4 does not present any enemy that makes us feel like exploring too much the whole switching on the fly style system. i think they could have worked this better making enemies that are hard to reach like Mephistos and Fausts and hard to hit like Blitzes
Who's this "Us?" More importantly, I gave you plenty of instances where moving outside of Swordmaster is extremely beneficial for efficiency. Just because you can't be bothered doesn't mean it isn't there, you're just choosing to ignore them and make things more difficult or drawn out for yourself because it's not as immediately obvious as Nero's Devil Bringer.
Nero can fight all of them easily too
How is that relevant? First off, are you suggesting the enemies in DMC4 are worse off because Nero actually has the tools he needs at any given time to be somewhat effective and DMC3's are brilliant because DMC3 Dante occasionally doesn't have the tools he needs for two relatively rare baddies? How does that make sense? Secondly, that's not even true. Nero has an easier time with the Cutlass than Dante does I'll grant you, but anything that requires removing a defensive barrier (So Mephistos, Fausts, Chimera Scarecrows/Assaults, Bianco Angelos, Blitzes) and just dealing with the Gladius is such a greater and drawn out ordeal for Nero than it is for Dante who can tear through those defensive methods with Styles effortlessly and zone leagues more effectively than Nero.
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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#14 Post by v4lor » Wed May 29, 2013 5:51 am

@Psycho: I believe his approach to enemies bar-none is that the best, stylish, and most efficient way is to always just launch and juggle/JC them to death, and in fact, is the entire mindset behind DMC. NT developed a similar theory behind the enemies, and where they decided to make it mindless, DK seems to want make it as inefficient and cumbersome as possible by ignoring the majority of DMC4's (both character's) moveset because they aren't immediately recognizable as repeatable/abusable. Which is fine if that's how you want to enjoy the game, but in an objective discussion about faults/options/etc it's just too narrow-minded.

Anyway, Psycho and VJ have both said what needs to be said of DmC, so I have nothing really to add.

However, I will say that removing those defensive barriers as Nero is still pretty trivial, even compared to Dante. Blitzes are the only real problem-enemy with Nero, there, but that's just me I guess.
Edit: because I confused Cutlass with Gladius.

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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#15 Post by Psychochild » Wed May 29, 2013 5:58 am

V4lor wrote:I believe his approach to enemies bar-none is that the best, stylish, and most efficient way is to always just launch and juggle/JC them to death, and in fact, is the entire mindset behind DMC. NT developed a similar theory behind the enemies, and where they decided to make it mindless, DK seems to want make it as inefficient and cumbersome as possible by ignoring the majority of DMC4's (both character's) moveset because they aren't immediately recognizable as repeatable/abusable. Which is fine if that's how you want to enjoy the game, but in an objective discussion about faults/options/etc it's just too narrow-minded.
Psychochild recently edited but clearly it a wasted effort wrote:Just because you can't be bothered doesn't mean it isn't there, you're just choosing to ignore them and make things more difficult or drawn out for yourself because it's not as immediately obvious as Nero's Devil Bringer.
Fuck, I've been JaN'ed
v4lor wrote: However, I will say that removing those defensive barriers as Nero is still pretty trivial, even compared to Dante. Blitzes are the only real problem-enemy with Nero, there, but that's just me I guess.
A single Rain Storm will tear through a Mephisto cloak. Nero requires about seven or eight Snatch jump cancels, a Charge Shot level 3 which takes seven seconds to charge up or a bit more drawn out DT gun spam. Fausts are even more resilient while Dante can cheese through them effortlessly with a well placed Fireworks. Chimera'd baddies are a much greater pain in the ass when they get the tendrils for Nero, but the trade-off is he has an easier time dealing with the jerks when they're not running loose looking for things to bang thanks to Snatch and Busters while Dante has much better, far more effective tools between Lucifer's and Rebellion's ranged Swordmaster options, Gunslinger and better ability to zone out Chimera Assaults and Scarecrows the entire time while he's doing it thanks to Trickster.
Also, Cutlass are the supreme JC-able enemy with Dante. They just have shit for health. (Though that's a general rule with everything in DMC4 anyway, so yeah.)
I feel the need to correct you here. You're thinking of these guys:

Image

I'm talking about these guys:

Image

Gladius are child's play for Dante. While he's got tools for the Cutlasses as well (Love Climax for these guys), they take a good deal more effort to fish them out of the walls than Nero has to exert.
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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#16 Post by v4lor » Wed May 29, 2013 6:04 am

Yep, I'm dumb. Still, though, Cutlasses are quite a fun enemy to smack around as Dante.. once you manage to get them out of the damn ground, anyway.

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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#17 Post by DelusionaryKiller » Wed May 29, 2013 6:52 am

which doesn't do much to deter my theory that NT's examination of DMC's combat mechanics when designing the core systems in this game started and ended with the DMC3's Truestyle Tournament Swordmaster rounds.
Plus a few mechanics they got from DMC4 and turned them a lot easier to do and overpowered them (ex: Donte's Whip)
A mechanic that makes it harder to interrupt these attacks and makes it very clumsy and non-intuitive to launch these enemies doesn't necessarily improve things.
I'm saying that it made some attack chains that weren't possible on normal enemies, possible. Such as doing helmbreakers and not having the enemy knock down to the ground. Or doing multiple Aerial Crosses on a DTed enemy, without having to rely at a wall to stop a normal enemy from flying back out of reach (but wall combo stuff are still pretty neat, especially in DMC4).
DMC4, while it had similar systems made it feel much more intuitive...
Which is why I said earlier on that "DMC has improved throughout each installment, especially in DMC3/DMC4.".
Unfortunately, all ground-based stygian-style humanoid monsters have no anti-air to speak of
I would like it if enemies had some sort of defense mechanism, which once it's disabled, allows you to combo off of them fluently. If you don't disable the mechanisim, they'd recover on the air. Such as in DMC4, when Angelos recover if you don't take their shield off. It rewards you in a way for playing tactically (though using Pandora is way too easy if it's one Alto Angelo you're going to combo off). I didn't like how Frost recovered in DMD mode, which forces me to learn what's possible with their mechanics in normal mode. They die quicker, which means I have to restart a mission until I've learned something.

I've also felt more pressure in DMC4 while in the air. Angleos, Frosts, Mephistos/Fausts, and flying sword things (forgot their name), are one of the most active enemies in the air. Not to mention that Mephistos/Fausts have more than 4 moves which attack you if you're in the air or on the ground.
try to get a combination of Vanguards and Fallens or Soul Eaters and Fallens/Vanguards
Would be great to see a video of someone going full air combat with these enemies. I can imagine they're tough to deal with, but I never seen such a combo in DMC3, besides Bloody Palace.
DK seems to want make it as inefficient and cumbersome as possible by ignoring the majority of DMC4's (both character's) moveset because they aren't immediately recognizable as repeatable/abusable.
...
Explain, where did you see me say something like that in this topic?
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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#18 Post by Dontefan » Wed May 29, 2013 4:41 pm

Patterns? The Seven Hells get two attacks each at most. Their pattern is to move close and swing. The Damned Chessmen get two attacks at most each and their only gameplan is to get Dante into their line of attack. The Bloodgoyles can only charge. Enigmas have only two firing arcs which are completely trivialized by having the right tools. Soul Eaters have only two charge attacks. Abyss have all of three attacks which... honestly, give them the same amount of utility as a Leg Scarecrow in DMC4 minus the zoning lunge on knock-back they have.

The greatest challenge in DMC3 isn't so much fighting those enemies, it's remembering where the Hell the troublemakers are and making a point to not completely screw yourself with a less-than-ideal load out when you stumble them. This is pretty much Enigmas (Nevan/Spiral) and Fallens of which they're all very few and far between among the sea of things you can combo almost mindlessly (Hells, Chessmen, Bloodgoyles, Soul Eaters (They have so little health they're rarely a threat) and Abysses so long as you remember to not knock them back which... if you're comboing them you tend to avoid anyway).

Arachnes are the most mechanically involved enemies, but they're also extreme outliers compared to the rest of the enemies in that they require you to be awake and they're harder to cheese (Though they're also very easy to get into a hit-stun infinte with Dante and ESPECIALLY Vergil).
Yes, most of the enemies in DMC when alone doesn't put much of a challenge. And i think this is true for every DMC that i've played even considering enemies with vast movesets (like i said even the Marionettes had vast movesets in DMC) if you juggle them to the death it's pretty much it unless you're dealing with a group of them (which happens most of the time), the mostly outlier exception being the Death Scissors in the original DMC, because you really have to keep your eyes open when he starts to dive in that invencible mode, i could use Shadows as examples too, but their only attack that requires you to dodge with some precision is that when he jumps and charge at you. The Bloodgoyles can only charge, they're really limited to only one move but they have properties that pretty much make them a potential threat to an otherwise easy fight (consider a scenario where you have, let's say... 2 Prides and 1 Lust) like the fact that you have to shot them before you can do real damage or you can waste some DT runes to deal great chunks of damage even in their "blood-form" with DTE. The same things goes for the Soul Eaters, they're easy to kill, but you HAVE to focus on them when they are ready to attack (i think this is only true to DMD mode, when they charge into you 2 times in a row) and while dealing with them you have to pay attetion to your surroundings and that's when it comes that what you said (knowing where the troublemakers are, like an Abyss, for example). And yes, the Enigmas becomes completely nullified by Nevan, to be honest i never bothered using Nevan too much before and i started to experiment with it just now that i get the HD Collection, but still it's a matter of a choice as you can only choose 2 weapons with Dante.

And now that you mentioned Vergil, if you have some personal tip to give with me to play with Vergil in general i would be greateful. He plays very different than Dante and i've just noticed that i suck with him while playing in DMD and trying to get some SS's in earlier missions, the main problems i face while using him:

- That long recovery frames of most of his combo finishers or even attacks in mid-combo.
- No air hike, i've got a bad habit of evading my enemies with Dante using it and controlling my position with air hike to get away from a fight, for example.
Who's this "Us?" More importantly, I gave you plenty of instances where moving outside of Swordmaster is extremely beneficial for efficiency. Just because you can't be bothered doesn't mean it isn't there, you're just choosing to ignore them and make things more difficult or drawn out for yourself because it's not as immediately obvious as Nero's Devil Bringer.
When i say "us" i say all the players that goes through the game at least in SoS mode or DMD mode or at least made more than half of the Bloody Palace and got a decent understanding of the enemies mechanics (what needs to nullify most of them when fighting them alone). I agree with you that mixing is extremely beneficial in some cases and i felt like doing this mainly while fighting against Mephistos/Fausts, Angelos and Blitzes, but look: DMC4 added so much to the player mechanics that they could have worked in some more enemies that forces you to take some more defensive behaviour with Trickster and Royalguard, for example (just to let you know: my favourite style is Royalguard, is the style that i played most in DMC3), seriously even i being a fan of RG style do not felt like using it with the exception of Blitzes because they have that "invencible melee" period where you have to keep a more safe fight so GL and RG are very useful here. Besides i'm thinking more about the balance that DMC3 had with the styles working with the enemies than the enemy design itself (even though it's part of the equation), let's take a Fallen, for example again: you have your share of pluses with every style while fighting a Fallen with each style: Swordmaster allows you to optimize damage while in close-range and you see an opening to some hard attacks like a slightly charged Volcano or even Tempest/Ultimate Tempest if you get a good opening, GL allows you to get decent damage in any range you like (charged shotty when close, charged E&I for long range or hitting more than one angel with Trick shot). That can just be me expecting too much from a single enemy and being ignorant about some limitations of the game or the design itself? I know that there's a lot of benefits and most of the advanced gameplay from every DMC games doesn't come straight from the game "telling" you that would be useful to master this or that technique, but simple from experimentation the players have done, i still i have to play DMC4 in DMD to see what's the real deal and get a real picture of how things work.
How is that relevant? First off, are you suggesting the enemies in DMC4 are worse off because Nero actually has the tools he needs at any given time to be somewhat effective and DMC3's are brilliant because DMC3 Dante occasionally doesn't have the tools he needs for two relatively rare baddies? How does that make sense? Secondly, that's not even true. Nero has an easier time with the Cutlass than Dante does I'll grant you, but anything that requires removing a defensive barrier (So Mephistos, Fausts, Chimera Scarecrows/Assaults, Bianco Angelos, Blitzes) and just dealing with the Gladius is such a greater and drawn out ordeal for Nero than it is for Dante who can tear through those defensive methods with Styles effortlessly and zone leagues more effectively than Nero.
This at least seems relevant at a first glance because Dante has much more tools to explore than Nero and fight the same enemies than him. I don't said that DMC3 Dante doesn't have the tools, i said that you're more "forced" to explore all the things you're limited to have in DMC3 each time you enter a mission and fight an enemy, it's not like it's optional to just ignore your style button while playing the higher difficult modes unless you're wanting more challenge. About this defensive barriers, i can't comment too much right now, i want to play DMC4 again this time in DMD to see what i'll be my experience this time.

And to be honest, that comment about DMC4 enemy design was not intended to cause all that reaction hahaha. Was just an unpretensious comment, i don't have the same experience and knowledge about DMC4 enemies as i have with DMC3 enemies (and to some extent, DMC1 too, although i played DMC3 the most). I had to mostly rush through DMC4 the only time i played it (i believe that i already mentioned this here) because i was playing it on a borrowed X360 and had to return it ASAP. Still, i liked to see how all of you adressed this subject, i will play DMC4 again when i get my copy and return with a more based view on the enemy design itself.

And about DmC, the main things that really brokes the game:

- Completely lack of balance in your tools, gives the impression that the game wasn't even playtested. Demon Dodge and Devil Trigger just explodes everything and DT renders nearly every single enemy in the game helpless. I mean, why the fuck this DT even exists? DMC4 mostly showed us how to work well with a DT: give the player more moves and options like Distortion or one more Sky Star to use while consuming your runes, give the player unique moves like Nevan's ones or something similar to Corrupted Vergil DT or even Nero's DT that gives you some more movements to work with and the natural buffs of this mode. The worst part of this unbalancing is having to hear people saying that DMC3 and 4 had "overpowered bullshit like Real Impact" and then they follow showing someone stomping Berial with distorted RIs, i mean, really? It's that hard to see that the startup frames of Real Impact or hitting a sucessful fully charged just-release puts you in a position where you have to take greater risks to succeed?

- No lock-on, for obvious reasons, you have less control over what your character are hitting or aiming in the screen. Just like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQXl2eAwkyw

- Why the enemy design is so lacking? The only enemy that can really fight back after you put him in a juggle state is the Dreamrunner, and you can avoid all his parries by JCing that kablooey and them baiting a parry to demon dodge and get full damage out of that shit. The ranged enemies are a joke, even in DMD they die in pretty much two combo strings from Reb and the only thing protecting them are that crappy shield that brokes in the first or second Drop or Flush JC. Not to mention that JCing in this game is so easy that is even weird to use, i mean, the hitboxes in the air are so gigantic that you can cancel one move too early even if you're not apparently connected with the monsters hitboxes. The Witchs shileds are meant to make them difficulty foes, but Aquila's Round Trips just make this be an hilarious joke as you can stun enemies forever with this shit and it's a ranged move just to make things worse. Other things that completely fucks the game are the grappling tools, there's really not much difficult to use them, it's simple like: stun the enemy, use the grapple, i think the only exception are these Butchers and Tyrants where even stunned you can only use the grapples in specific parts of their bodies and it knockdown them instead of bringing them mid-air with you.

- Bosses are outrageous. You don't have to be even an intermediate player to see this, they're just completely dumb, they cue their attacks for so much time that it even confuses the player while fighting them the first time because it's not very intuitive to hear a cue or see the boss start a move and the hit just lands 5 seconds after it, i mean, it's too much time to react that i don't even know if it can be really called a "reaction". Cutscenes mid-fight and demon dodge abuse are common with most bosses in the game, i think the exception is Bob Barbas.

- The angel/demon mechanic, there's really no other way to make them usable without using 4 buttons to accomplish this? I mean, the only reason that you have two dodge buttons is because the devs thought that i would be too unintuitive to use the angel/demon doges. You kill one button with the same exact movement because of a mechanic that doesn't really add too much variety to the game, doesn't look like the wisest design choice to make.
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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#19 Post by v4lor » Wed May 29, 2013 10:03 pm

@DK: In this topic, not so much, but I get from the majority of your posts that you focus on air juggles with an almost fetishistic obsession, when there are entire aspects of combat that should be included in an objective discussion. Statements like...
I didn't like how Frost recovered in DMD mode, which forces me to learn what's possible with their mechanics in normal mode.
...make it seem that you talk more about personal preference for enemy behavior than actual mechanics. Just so you know, Frosts breaking out of your combo in mid-air is a deliberate mechanic that is predictable/trigger-able, and both characters have ways to cope with/exploit that mechanic. Instead of learning how to understand it and use it to your advantage, you dismiss it as something you don't "like" and go play them on Normal mode. Which, again, is perfectly fine if that's what is fun for you, but the topic is purposed towards an objective comparison of the games. I know it probably sounds like I'm attacking you, and I apologize because that's not what I'm trying to do, but it just sounds like you are confusing reasons why DmC is objectively worse than its predecessors with reasons why you yourself like one game or games more than DmC.

Since I'm here, I may as well try and go on topic even if its been said before:

Superfluous Copy/Pasting of mechanics (jump canceling, the Style meter, etc) without an understanding of the purpose they serve.

-Jump Cancelling. Ninja Theory clearly didn't understand the implications of this mechanic as displayed by its haphazard application here. The primary reason to perform a jump cancel doesn't exist in this game, resetting the aerial move counter so you can repeatedly perform actions that should otherwise only happen once before you touch the ground. The only move I can think of that it resets is the aerial dodge, or moves like Helmbreaker/Tremor, but if you are using those it's probably because you want to get to the ground, so jump canceling for efficiency isn't in the equation there.

-Moves with overlapping purposes. Before I get into this one, I'm just going to say that DMC3 suffers from this as well, but only slightly, because it allows you the constantly change out your arsenal, so some overlap is necessary to make sure Dante always has at least a handful of core spacing/crowd-control abilities. DmC suffers from this to a far greater extent because you are locked into a singular weapon set for the entire game. There is no need for me to Rake when I can do Aerial Buy-In. Both Demon weapon's default attack string serves the same purpose, to send a single enemy flying. Both Rebellion's and Osiris' delayed air strings result in the exact same enemy state. Ninja Theory seems to have tried to just cram whatever moves in there they thought looked good, and didn't realize that there are plenty of other factors that go into why someone would choose one attack for a situation and not another. (Though, I guess with the Whips, it's just another mindless step in the wrong direction. "Who cares where the combos send your enemy, you can just Whip them again!")

-Color-coded enemies. I shouldn't even have to explain why, in a series about creating as many options for the player as possible, that limiting the amount of moves you have available is a bad thing. Coupled with the overlapping movesets I mentioned before, color-coded enemies are the definition of tedium. If you really want to disprove this, I challenge you to make a video wherein the player fights 2 Blood Rages in an interesting and varied manner. Normal Rages themselves already nullify a chunk of Dante's arsenal thanks to their speed/recovery, Blood Rages reduce that to about a handful of attacks. It's just not happening.

-Story. No this isn't a rant/comparison saying one is better than the other. This is me saying that when you dedicate most of your budget to imitating Hollywood, other areas of your game are going to suffer because of lack of resources. Any money that they could've spent on designers with actual talent, any money that could've been spent on Q&A and play-testing, was summarily wasted because they just had to have access to mo-cap and technology that has zero to do with gameplay. As a result we get an under-performing (my next point), glitch-ridden, unbalanced mess. Things that were apparent to be problems after 5 minutes persisted into the final product, wherein the consumer had to wait for things to be fixed via patch. Exploitable Style systems, the laughably-overpowered Demon Dodge and Devil Triggers, the flying glitches/falling through the floor stuff/ etc. For what was supposedly a AAA title it had an incredibly sloppy, unprofessional release.

-30 Frames Per Second. This is a touchy one, because a lot of people just think it means visual fidelity. That is not its sole purpose -in a video game-. DmC's predecessors ran at 60fps for a good reason. It required frame-specific inputs which would determine things like whether or not you dodged an attack or got hit, whether or not you get a damage boost, it even allowed an entire Style dedicated to frame-specific inputs, raising the skill bar. With 30fps and frame-skipping, any controller inputs during those skipped frames is delayed, and the action is carried over to the next rendered frame. It becomes a serious issue in high-level play when your dodge or attack is coming out even one frame too late, it is frequently the difference between taking/dealing damage. All this input delay only serves as a point of frustration to the player, as it lessens how much direct control you have over Dante. This ties in with my previous point because in their efforts to retain a cinematic focus with the game, they made sacrifices in the area of gameplay.

There is much, much more to be said about this game, but this list is starting to depress me so I'll stop here for now. Instead, I'll just quote VJ for truth, justice, and the Kamiya way:
just think of ANY random thing from DmC. Doesn't matter what thing. That thing is incredibly awful, or at the very least, incredibly boring/buggy/lazy.

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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#20 Post by Jebryath » Thu May 30, 2013 2:08 am

And i think this is true for every DMC that i've played even considering enemies with vast movesets (like i said even the Marionettes had vast movesets in DMC) if you juggle them to the death it's pretty much it unless you're dealing with a group of them
Good lord, it's been a while since you've played DMC1, hasn't it? Good luck juggling Shadows. Actually, for the most part, good luck juggling Frosts. (DMC4 crippled them by comparison to the heatseeking nightmares they were in the first game.)

Actually, it's really weird to me that people keep talking about good enemy design and avoiding mentioning DMC1. I mean, DMC3's enemies were cute, they had some alright synergy, but they were mostly punching bags with the most common threat from normal enemies being that you just lost track due to sheer numbers. (DMC4 brought the balance back somewhat closer to DMC1's, but it kept the DMC3 concept alive with a few specific enemy types.)

Of course, I guess that bringing DMC1 in really tends to complicate the issue because Kamiya made a very different DMC game than Itsuno did. DMC3 in particular is just way more about what Dante can do than about what he's up against. Just totally the opposite of what DMC1 was in a lot of ways.

So what do we talk about when we say DMC? If you want to attack DmC for not being a DMC game, you really need to nail that down. The best way to try and define something is usually going to be to start comparing it to other things. What makes DMC distinct from God of War? From Bayonetta? From Dynasty Warriors? Etc, etc.

For the record, I'm not even sure I can honestly say that DmC isn't a DMC game. I can say that I never thought it would be very good, but they actually surprised me with how much effort seemed to go into lifting most of the things that I would have said defined it. (Apart from the tone of the story and the characterization.) Unfortunately for them, they never really convinced me that they'd put much effort into making it good or even into thinking about why the old games were good.
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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#21 Post by Dontefan » Thu May 30, 2013 3:28 am

Good lord, it's been a while since you've played DMC1, hasn't it? Good luck juggling Shadows. Actually, for the most part, good luck juggling Frosts. (DMC4 crippled them by comparison to the heatseeking nightmares they were in the first game.)

Actually, it's really weird to me that people keep talking about good enemy design and avoiding mentioning DMC1. I mean, DMC3's enemies were cute, they had some alright synergy, but they were mostly punching bags with the most common threat from normal enemies being that you just lost track due to sheer numbers. (DMC4 brought the balance back somewhat closer to DMC1's, but it kept the DMC3 concept alive with a few specific enemy types.)

Of course, I guess that bringing DMC1 in really tends to complicate the issue because Kamiya made a very different DMC game than Itsuno did. DMC3 in particular is just way more about what Dante can do than about what he's up against. Just totally the opposite of what DMC1 was in a lot of ways.

So what do we talk about when we say DMC? If you want to attack DmC for not being a DMC game, you really need to nail that down. The best way to try and define something is usually going to be to start comparing it to other things. What makes DMC distinct from God of War? From Bayonetta? From Dynasty Warriors? Etc, etc.

For the record, I'm not even sure I can honestly say that DmC isn't a DMC game. I can say that I never thought it would be very good, but they actually surprised me with how much effort seemed to go into lifting most of the things that I would have said defined it. (Apart from the tone of the story and the characterization.) Unfortunately for them, they never really convinced me that they'd put much effort into making it good or even into thinking about why the old games were good.
I was not saying you can juggle every enemy in the game, Jesus Christ, don't get me this wrong. And i actually consider DMC1 to have the best enemy design of the series. Nearly all enemies can fight back and the only "easy way" to kill them is using critical hits and some doesn't even work in DMD! mode.


I recognize DmC as a DMC game, to some extent. But it's a pretty bad DMC game, as a hack'n'slash alone it is at least decent compared to other franchises (God of War, Bayonetta, Ninja Gaiden) and trying to forget that it's suppose to be a DMC game.
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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#22 Post by DelusionaryKiller » Sat Jun 01, 2013 8:46 am

v4lor wrote:@DK: In this topic, not so much, but I get from the majority of your posts that you focus on air juggles with an almost fetishistic obsession

Depending on the posts. Most of the times I talked about aerial combat was when I asked how to do things, like DT juggling or Lucifer Glitching. I find aerial combat very amusing and interesting. I talk about other stuff, a close next are boss battles, but I usually have no questions in those fields.
when there are entire aspects of combat that should be included in an objective discussion.
So I'm the one who gets called out, yet there are others in this topic who didn't talk about gameplay in general, or started going off topic (which I'm sure others did the same in the other topics where I posted about my "fetishistic obsession").
My first post on this topic was about stuff that I heard no one talk about in detail. No Lock-On and enemy mechanics are the main points I wanted to get across. I added boss battles, airtime, and difficulty, but I didn't discuss them in great detail since a lot has been said about those already. Not to mention these things are relevant to the topic, which no one said to include entire aspects of combat. I even forgot to add a few other stuff due to the time and energy I had to write, which is why I said "There is a shit ton, but I'm tired of typing, so I'm done.".
Statements like...
I didn't like how Frost recovered in DMD mode, which forces me to learn what's possible with their mechanics in normal mode.
...make it seem that you talk more about personal preference for enemy behavior than actual mechanics. Just so you know, Frosts breaking out of your combo in mid-air is a deliberate mechanic that is predictable/trigger-able, and both characters have ways to cope with/exploit that mechanic. Instead of learning how to understand it and use it to your advantage, you dismiss it as something you don't "like" and go play them on Normal mode.
First off, you said "DK seems to want make it as inefficient and cumbersome as possible by ignoring the majority of DMC4's (both character's) moveset because they aren't immediately recognizable as repeatable/abusable.", which you still didn't give me an example of my first post where I something like that. I wrote that statement AFTER you said that, telling me that there was no said thing before.
Second, I already knew you can prevent a Frost from recovering. I don't know the exact rules, all I know is that depending on how you launch a Frost (such as a Highroller during an attack animation from it or Devil Bringer+ HighRoller), you can increase the number of hits it takes before it's recovers. You can reset the "counter" by launches, knockdowns and maybe knockbacks. But I don't like it because it's doesn't add anything new, at least DT juggling allowed you to do stuff that weren't possible with normal enemies in DMC3. Not to mention it limits the amount of moves you can do before you are forced to reset the counter. Which is ironic, since you said "make it as inefficient and cumbersome as possible", which is what you're doing right now. I never dismissed it a something I disliked just because I don't want to figure out a set of complicated rules, I dislike it because it adds no new mechanics, which can subtract more than it adds.
Third, I doubt I've seen any good combos on DMD Frosts using Dante. DMD Frost combos have a chance of being repetitive and clunky. Even after 5 years I still haven't seen anything, most of the combos videos use the first set of Frost in Bloody Palace. If people who are way better than me never did a great Frost combo while in possession of Debug Mode, how could I?
I've seen more with Nero though (which I don't use as much). Nero has the benefit of his Devil Bringer to bring enemies which have been knocked down in order to rest the counter. What do I mean? Remember how Kail did that repetitive combo on a frost? He sent them down with Split, JC, Devil Bringer, JC, Split.... You see, on certain occasions you cant even hit the Frost more than once with a normal attack without the Frost recovering. To reset the counter, you have to knockdown or launch, so it almost forces you to be repetitive. This also means you can rarely do Roulette Spin unless you launch it in the right manner, meaning aerial launching is unreliable with him.
Dante doesn't have a grab move, so if he knocksdown the Frost, he has to touch the ground so he could Hightime it, something I find unattractive in a combo (a few exceptions). But he does have Ecstasy, an aerial launcher that doesn't require him to execute other moves before it. Still, I cant imagine seeing something great with DMD Frosts with Dante.
Forth, I forgot to add that I would like a recovery system anyway, but in a few enemies. Even DMC3's Dted Abysses had this, (but was less restricted than Frosts). This means that I consider DmC inferior in that aspect.
but the topic is purposed towards an objective comparison of the games
I know it probably sounds like I'm attacking you, and I apologize because that's not what I'm trying to do, but it just sounds like you are confusing reasons why DmC is objectively worse than its predecessors with reasons why you yourself like one game or games more than DmC.
I didn't judge DMC4 or DmC based on the recovery mechanics until this post, so I'm not confusing anything. Give me an example where I do.
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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#23 Post by BassOmegaX » Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:51 pm

Psychochild wrote: Now try to think of any stand-out moves that are interesting and unique to DmC. If the answer is anything except Buy-In and Ricoshot, you're wrong. Challenge me on this.
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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#24 Post by Jebryath » Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:24 pm

That's DMC, not DmC.
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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#25 Post by BassOmegaX » Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:17 pm

Maybe I should have elaborated that ricoshot is not unique to DmC because a ricocheting projectile came first in the form of the Nightmare Beta.

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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#26 Post by Psychochild » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:37 pm

BassOmegaX wrote:
Psychochild wrote: Now try to think of any stand-out moves that are interesting and unique to DmC. If the answer is anything except Buy-In and Ricoshot, you're wrong. Challenge me on this.
Nightmare beta.
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Correct answer is that it's a ghetto mangled version of DMC3's Trick Shot and Charge Shot. Nightmare Beta is still far too mechanically interesting to be distilled into such a dull attack and to even imply that Ninja Theory actually played DMC1 beyond the first three levels is pure folly on your part seeing as how it was such an affront on their western sensibilities.

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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#27 Post by Dontefan » Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:34 pm

I'm going a lot off topic for a moment because i've started to play DMC4 again and noticed something that i didn't noticed this strongly back in 2011. Why Capcom used more visual cues than audio cues in DMC4? I can see difference but i cannot see the meaning of it and personally i relied strongly in audio cues back in DMC3 to react to some in-coming attack, and at some point this seems to be something to increase the player focus to track down the location of that specific monster that can bring harm even from afar, this can answer why they've given up the "damage" criteria for the rankings too? I think the things became really messed when you have like 3 Chimera'ed Assaults coming to you, obviously Dante "compensates" the lack of this cues because trickster is aways acessible now and with awesome mobility if DT'ed, and Nero just snatch them out of their most annoying attacks (the blood shots ou even the air-dive thing) or outright fuck them with CS2 or 3.

And by the way, i really changed my opinion about DMC4 enemy design and i agree a little bit more with VJ now, but i still disagree with him when he says that "DMC3 monsters are walking punchbags because limited moveset", this obviously isn't true in DMD where you have to have very specific knowledge and have to waste a lot of time to actually juggle a monster and put yourself in harms way constantly to do this. DMC4 monsters have a really strong anti-air game in DMD mode, and this applies even to leg-crows; and by the way: someone has some tips in the most efficient methods do remove Alto Angelos' shields without relying the moment before the combat to use Omen? I mean, Omen can be used in a lot of battles if you know they're comming or can make some setups from what i've see so far, but i want to engage more then on battle before doing this, i used royal releases to some extent to deal with them but it seems much more effective against Biancos than Altos. With Nero i don't have much problem dealing with their shields, it's basicaly CS, CS, CS and a buster poke to their shield and repeat. Some tips on the best setups for MAX/Ex-acting mid-combo are appreaciated too, i'm trying to implement a lot of Double Downs in my combos and when i feel it will not kill the enemy i just JC it and start the whole thing again with a CS3, snatch or comboing them from the ground again with some slashs and EX High Roller.

And this time i found new appreciation to Nero's mechanics now that i don't have to rush myself through the game, and EX-Shuffle and Double Down are now among my favourite movements in all DMC history along with Volcano, Real Impact, Ultimate Tempest, Royal releases, Vergil's Helm Breaker, Judgement Cut, Inferno, Auto-Combo and Starfall. These movements feels so fucking powerful and makes up to stylish combo enders. But i still have to practice with specific monsters to make better use of RG style in general, DMC4 feels very different than DMC3 RGing (it was my favourite style in DMC3), i think they could have made the guard-bar a little more convenient with the concept of silver/gold parries (just like EX-Act and Max-Act), meaning a gold parry would fill a lot of the bar and a silver not that much, but i don't even know if there is silve/gold parries in DMC4, i've never seen my health bar being drained during blocking unless the block itself failed.
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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#28 Post by DelusionaryKiller » Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:18 am

For the audio cues, I'm not sure if this is true. But I do think audio cues played a heavier role in DMC3 than DMC4 when it comes to Royal Guard. I can remember I used sound to time my parries, unlike DMC4, where I used the help of visuals only. That might just be me though. If there is significant decrease in audio cues for DMC4, it would be compensated by the camera. If an enemy isn't on-screen, they wont attack you, so this can be an advantage for the player.
has some tips in the most efficient methods do remove Alto Angelos' shields without relying the moment before the combat to use Omen?
You can hit the Alto Angelo with rebellion until he pulls up his shield. Once he has done that, you quickly jump cancel the first part Yamato's aerial rave until his shield breaks (applies for DMD mode). The timing is a bit hard for me to pull off consistently, but then again, I rarely use this method. You can still use Pandora after the Alto Angelo spawns, you just go behind him, Prop Shedder (the first part) and use Pandora.
i used royal releases to some extent to deal with them but it seems much more effective against Biancos than Altos. With Nero i don't have much problem dealing with their shields, it's basicaly CS, CS, CS and a buster poke to their shield and repeat.
If we were to ignore Pandora in this situation, both Nero and Dante can take a Bianco Angelos with similar effectiveness. But with Alto Angelos, Dante has the upper hand.
Some tips on the best setups for MAX/Ex-acting mid-combo are appreaciated too
Practice, all there is to it really.
EX-Shuffle and Double Down are now among my favourite movements in all DMC history along with Volcano, Real Impact, Ultimate Tempest, Royal releases, Vergil's Helm Breaker, Judgement Cut, Inferno, Auto-Combo and Starfall
For Nero's damaging moves, level 3 Charged Shots (preferably DTed), and Max-ACT, Ex-ACT and normal Caliubrs are my favorite.
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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#29 Post by Gerbil X » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:40 pm

Psychochild wrote:
Fuck, I've been JaN'ed
Wow. References.
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Re: How DmC failed as a DMC game. Can we make a list?

#30 Post by Crazy » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:44 pm

Oh man JaN'ing.

Anyway, I'd like to think the audio cues were somewhat phased out in 4 compared to 3 because 3's camera wasn't nearly as friendly and didn't pan out nearly as much. It was possible for you to see the whole crowd in 4, while 3 was really hit-or-miss.
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