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BassOmegaX
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Why, HELLO THERE everyone

#1 Post by BassOmegaX » Mon Jan 09, 2012 9:01 am

Some of you, or few of you might remember me from a few years back. Basically, I played DMC1 on normal for my first time, then I followed it up with a Normal SB run, which I finished. Then I followed that with S rank runs of Hard mode and DMD! mode, both of which were my first time. Now, I become a busier person and now with the HD collection announced, I feel like playing this game again. Now, I want to attempt a SB Hard mode run. There really seems to be a lack of information on SB'ing this game on modes other than DMD! and really, I don't want to lose my sanity attempting to do a SB run on DMD! mode because of Missions 1, 3, 7(maybe), 17, 20, and 22.

So I would like to ask what the best strategy to SB Mission 1 on Hard with a fresh Dante, because I really doubt that the best strategy is to spam Ebony and Ivory when these enemies can't DT and have more HP than on DMD! mode.

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#2 Post by Tecarmel » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:38 pm

I do remember you! Welcome back.

For a Hard Mode SB run, while it is true there isn't as much information available, it is considered by some to be easier to SB than either Normal (orb troubles) or DMD (self-explanatory). Hard Mode enemies, even bosses, have the same health as on Normal Mode, they just deal more damage (which shouldn't be a factor anyway in a run where you can't take damage). But then you have the tougher enemy placement.

I've never done a Hard Mode SB run myself, just Hard and DMD S-Rank runs and a Normal SB run. But I could try to make suggestions.
I would like to ask what the best strategy to SB Mission 1 on Hard with a fresh Dante
Since you've done a Normal SB run you may find M1 easier, even with a fresh Dante. You'll get more Bloody Maris on Hard, which should stay alive long enough for you to get Stylish and meet your orb total. Do 4-hit combos > High Time finisher, or multiple grounded High Times. Watch out for the ones with Shotguns.



Looking a little ahead, I think you need the CH Phantom strategy on Hard - the damage from being underwater counts against you and you need to do the Secret Mission to compensate, leaving you little time to deal with Phantom any other way. Did you ever master it?

Also, are you going for 100%?

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#3 Post by Shadow » Wed Jan 11, 2012 6:49 am

I have a very bad memory, sometimes I don't even remember who this Tecarmel person is. :p

Good luck on your run :p
"ERMAHGERD, UH GERT A HURRCURT" - SD

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#4 Post by BerN » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:07 pm

Ah, keep us updated! I don't really think the strats change that much from DMD mode, really. If enemies DT on DMD it's because you're doing something wrong, anyway.

You even say you already SB'd Normal and S'd all the other modes, so I think you're already very capable of SBing DMD (unless you've forgotten how to play this game after all this time - you didn't really specify for how long you haven't touched DMC1).

M1 is only a problem if you're doing a fresh run.

M3 is always a problem, but after you get the basic strat of the mission and train your Phantom CH for a while, it will only be a matter of time. Just get ready for some frustrating moments related to the time limit. :p

M7's only problem is the fact that in some runs, it'll never give you the SB. Also, if you're doing a fresh run, you don't have Ifrit and so dealing with the Frosts becomes much, much harder. So M7 should only be a problem on fresh runs.

M17 is tough mostly because of Nelo. Having lots of Yellow Orbs helps a lot in keeping your sanity, but again, in a fresh run you don't have that luxury.

M20 is also tough but doable.

And, finally, M22 is a nightmare. Expect an extremely boring and obnoxious first part, where you keep spamming bullets for, like, 3 full mins, just to get to the real battle. This really was what frustrated me the most. Having to wait 3 mins to get to the real battle, while still being able to get hit and thus having to reset the mission, was very unnerving. Very.
But yeah, M22 is the worst mission to SB, but you'll definitely do it even if you take something like 6 months to do it (lolololo).

Good luck on your run, have fun and keep us updated, so this board can have a little more life.

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#5 Post by BassOmegaX » Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:07 am

Well I recently tried to attempt it just once. It was easier than I thought. The basement room was not that hard, although I don't know if I was just lucky. However, since the enemies can't DT, that alone should make a big difference. But the next room with the plane is a pain. The group of Bloody Maris are aggressive as hell. How I got through was actually using the DMD! strategy by jumping to the platform and spamming the handguns just to avoid all of the attacks. I do felt it was a bit slow so I would jump back down to go back comboing them. The biggest problem is just not getting hit.

Usually though, all I do is play certain missions to fight bosses on DMD!, most likely Nelo 3. I don't even remember the strategies that I originally used against bosses in DMD! when I did my S rank run. Most likely, it would probably be a derivation of something Joch used in his SB videos. Back then, I refused to watch anyone else besides Joch for no arbitrary reason. So recently, I watched sternn's speedruns which are amazing and so I adopted some of his strategies that he used in his runs and tried to perfect them.

Anyways, for Mission 3, I have a save on DMD! for the sole purpose of practicing the CH strategy for Phantom. I would say that I can consistently get the stunning first hit on Phantom, but most of the time, it does not do CH damage. Then sometimes I can't follow up because I keep hitting his armor instead of his weak point and other times, the camera screws up really badly.

For Mission 7, I never fought Frosts with Alastor and I really hate slash cancelling because I have trouble getting consistent slashes in. And if I were to start a SB DMD! run, it would be, in fact, a fresh Dante.

Mission 17 is a problem because of the four Frosts. Blades and Frosts usually get a hit on me. It doesn't help either that the Frosts start with a hard to avoid attack. Then after the Frosts, Nelo 3 is just such an unpredictable boss that sometimes I don't get hit, sometimes I die. Although on my hard mode run, since Nelo just has so much less health, I'm not worrying because I'm pretty sure I can kill him fast enough. Does anyone know how sternn gets through this mission without getting hit by the opening lunge of the Frosts by just walking?

Mission 22 is awful. Mundus 1's lightning attack sucks. Then Mundus 2. If I try hard enough, I probably can get through most of his health without getting hit. However, his 10 meteors attack just plain sucks.

I've also did some planning ahead for some reason, and I know that I need to fight Griffon 1. Since I have no idea how to fight Griffon with Alastor, I'm going to use a knockdown based strategy with Inferno, and also that this is a fresh game, I'm going to have to walk, buy the skills, then go fight Griffon. I'm not actually worried about the time just because it is hard mode and Griffon doesnt have that much health. Either that or learn how to use Alastor for Griffon.

In Mission 12 against Griffon 2, I try to launch a Meteor 2 in the beginning, but the timing is rather strict. With the wrong timing, it would do very little damage or just plain miss. Also for my hard mode SB run, I'm probably going to use the Meteor 2 strategy. I had a save on Griffon 2 on Hard mode, and I found out (and apparently no one else knows this) that hard mode bosses take less damage from guns so E&I method is the same as on DMD! mode. I also really hate button mashing so I'd rather not use handguns.

Mission 16 also really gives me trouble just because I have trouble getting on top of Nightmare 1. For some reason, I can easily get on top of Nightmare 2 and 3, just not 1.

I probably am not doing a 100% run. I really do not want to do every single secret mission and it is just tedious to grab every single blue orb fragment. I actually might consider a 3-rune run for no reason.

With all of this planning, I'll eventually succeed with enough persistence. But I might not even a chance to start, because I have other stuff to do besides play DMC and I won't have more time until April-May, which the HD collection is out by then. I am getting the Japanese PS3 version BTW, because I have this obsession with circle confirm. Finally, I would just like to say that practicing against bosses on DMD! like Griffon, Nelo Angelo, and Nightmare really made me appreciate the design of these bosses and somehow, made me realize how much worse the boss (and even regulary enemy) design is in DMC3(IMO anyways).

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#6 Post by Andy » Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:43 pm

I sadly can't help you, but I'm reading this thread. I'll immerse myself in anything DMC1 in this late stage, and this is good stuff.
War were declared.

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#7 Post by BassOmegaX » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:42 am

Just a quick update, I suck at Mission 1 basement and the airplane room. The problem is slash cancelling the first wave. My positioning is horrible so I get hit. Then the second wave is rather easy.

Then I have no idea what to do in the airplane room. I start off with some slash cancelling, then I back off then jump on the platform and spam the handguns. That's too slow so after some point, I jump back down and start comboing again.

Then for the hell of it, I go on do Mission 2 and the SB is so easy.

In other news, since most of the time I replay Nelo Angelo missions and just beat the crap out of him, I somehow got a SB on Mission 17 DMD! Then I was reading old posts and read that the Nightmare-β increases the damage of the Ifrit attack that uses Dante's left arm and found that this is true, although DT'd attacks have either little or no boost at all. Non DT's ones do twice as much damage.

What I'm scared is that if I do start, I won't finish and if I don't start, it will never happen. Too much planning.

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#8 Post by BerN » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:20 am

You sure as hell are planning more than I ever did. Just go for it. You seem more than ready. Just tackle one mission at a time and you'll be on the tougher later missions in no time.

Also, DMC1 is only hard before you know how to play it. Once you know what works best against a specific enemy, you can pretty much breeze through it - unless you screw your execution up and/or get hit, which will happen a lot before you master the tactics, but it will ultimately be always your fault, because DMC1 isn't anything like DMC3. But when you master the battles, you're pretty much always in control and this is a great time to start experimenting again, trying new things, hoping this 10 year old community might have forgotten something about something in this 10 year old game. Even trivial things like equipping Nightmare Beta with Ifrit leading to greater output damage could be seen as worthy knowledge of being in Joch's FAQ.
And this leads me to the last thing: this game's been totally figured out for many time now. All the valuable knowledge has been compiled in Joch's FAQ and videos and sternn's speedruns. You have basically all you need to get good at it.
Then I was reading old posts and read that the Nightmare-β increases the damage of the Ifrit attack that uses Dante's left arm and found that this is true
Although I had also heard about that, I have never tested it (at least I think so). Cool beans on the not working/not relevant on DT.
Back then, I also found out charged Ifrit punches/kicks counted as non-charged while using Time Bangle. Curiously enough, I think I found it against Nelo Angelo 2, but then tested for Fetishes and Marionettes and it still applied. I assumed it happened against all enemies. PAL ver. and not sure about charged Meteor now that I think about it. So confirm it, will ya? You're pretty much the only one playing this game at the moment. :3
Does anyone know how sternn gets through this mission without getting hit by the opening lunge of the Frosts by just walking?
Yeah, just hold the analogue down/left during the cutscene. No need for fast reactions or anything. Dante will just walk by the attack.
and I found out (and apparently no one else knows this) that hard mode bosses take less damage from guns so E&I method is the same as on DMD! mode. I also really hate button mashing so I'd rather not use handguns.
The more you know. Never heard about that. Also, in all fairness, the button mashing required for M22 is much, much greater than that of M12.

As for getting on top of Nightmare, easiest way is to jump parallel to its body, as you probably already know.
and I won't have more time until April-May
oshi-

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#9 Post by v4lor » Sun Feb 05, 2012 4:35 am

but it will ultimately be always your fault, because DMC1 isn't anything like DMC3.
Can you explain this? I can't recall being hit in DMC3 in a way that wasn't avoidable.

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#10 Post by BassOmegaX » Mon Apr 02, 2012 5:44 am

I'll get started back on this next week. The most troublesome of Mission 1 is the airplane room after the basement room. The enemies are extremely aggressive in that area.

I've also been doing a lot of M22 on DMD! If I ever do a DMD! SB run, I'll never get the SB.

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#11 Post by BassOmegaX » Sat May 26, 2012 1:45 am

Hard mode bosses are so boring. Anyways, I found this video. Even in DMC1, you had a "just release." Not sure how it affects DT'd punches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Q_APnMQh8

EDIT: It works in DT'd mode. The timing isn't fully charge and release right before it auto releases, you charge until you just reach a boosted level then release. Not sure if it's worth mastering. I'm not even sure if people mastered just releases in DMC4 because I never keep up with that.

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#12 Post by BassOmegaX » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:26 am

For those who still care,

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#13 Post by BerN » Sun Jun 17, 2012 7:49 pm

v4lor wrote:
but it will ultimately be always your fault, because DMC1 isn't anything like DMC3.
Can you explain this? I can't recall being hit in DMC3 in a way that wasn't avoidable.
No I can't explain. What I said was stupid. I reckon getting hit in DMC3 will ultimately always be your fault, too. Predicting and expecting particular attacks is very possible there as well. I guess what I thought, but was unable to say, was that while in DMC3 you'd often get some pretty cheap/stupid hits, in DMC1 that wouldn't be so common and as such, less frustrating.
Hard mode bosses are so boring. Anyways, I found this video. Even in DMC1, you had a "just release." Not sure how it affects DT'd punches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Q_APnMQh8

EDIT: It works in DT'd mode. The timing isn't fully charge and release right before it auto releases, you charge until you just reach a boosted level then release. Not sure if it's worth mastering. I'm not even sure if people mastered just releases in DMC4 because I never keep up with that.
Nice find man. I guess the correct term would be just frame, since this is pretty much the same as DMC4.
And it would definitely be useful for speedruns. I wonder how much faster it would be in Nightmare's battle, for example.

EDIT: Just watched your vids (they're yours, right?) till M8 and I gotta say it's a pretty awesome run so far. I've no doubt you can already SB DMD - if you haven't done so already. At any rate, it's still nice to have a recorded Hard mode SB run in yt.
Gotta say I loved all those rebounds/deflections against the Death Scythe in M4, too.

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#14 Post by v4lor » Mon Jun 18, 2012 9:03 am

I guess what I thought, but was unable to say, was that while in DMC3 you'd often get some pretty cheap/stupid hits, in DMC1 that wouldn't be so common and as such, less frustrating.
Ah.

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#15 Post by BassOmegaX » Tue Jun 19, 2012 6:13 am

Yes, that's me playing. There's lots of comments I feel like making, annotating, properly naming all of the tags, but I'll do that later.(I'm not busy, just lazy and demotivated)

Image

That's the damage comparison against Hard Mode Nelo Angelo 2. I only said Just Release before because that's what it said in the Japanese(ジャストリリース=jasuto ririisu=just release). Not exactly a huge damage increase, but it might be worth it for, I don't know, sternn, to use, even if accidentally.

Bern, just a question. When you did your DMD! SB run, do you remember the secret missions that you did for Mission 4?

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#16 Post by BerN » Tue Jun 19, 2012 4:58 pm

Oh cool. Off the top of my head, the only occasion where I see it would be useful to master these just frame (see this, it's the same thing as far as I can tell) charged P/K would be against Nightmare, where charged P/K are effectively the best strat there. And even then, only in a speedrun, obviously.

And in my SB run I didn't do any secret mission, just went to check in my thread lol. It's only really needed in a fresh game I suppose. In my unfinished-and-someday-to-be-deleted-off-youtube Ifrit run, I was doing M4's 3 secret missions. Both the phantom babies SM and the 3 Shadows one.

Now I really feel like buying this game when I get back to Azores!

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#17 Post by BassOmegaX » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:11 am

M4:

Time - 06:28
Orbs - 870
I don't believe that you didn't do any secret missions. But anyways, the reason why I wanted to know is that I might have figured out a meaningful part of ranking leniency and Mission 7.

Basically, I had a lenient Mission 6. I wanted to practice the Frosts on Mission 7, so I accepted an undeserved SB(and redoing it later). So on that Mission 7, I could not get a SB, even though I got under two minutes, and took no hits. However, when I got a deserved SB on Mission 6, my Mission 7 is also lenient. I took a hit and got over two minutes and still got the SB.

Anyways, the point is that this shows a lenient ranking can be used up or carried over to later missions. I also believe that the proper way to get a SB in Mission 7 is to do the secret mission.

So I decided to do Mission 4 again, getting the SB but avoid doing the Secret Missions. I followed up with a SB in Mission 5 and 6, but I could not get the SB in Mission 7.

So the idea that lenient ranking and Mission 7 ranking is determined from the start of the game is not 100% true. I think that doing Secret Missions open up the possibility of lenient rankings, because I've noticed I never got an undeserved SB in my many playthroughs of the game.

The point is that if doing Secret Missions make lenient rankings possible, then it should be reproducible. Unfortunately, I'm too lazy to test further, not to mention I'm the only person playing DMC1 right now.

And I don't really care about lenient rankings either. All I care about is guaranteeing a SB in Mission 7 without the secret mission. I think that doing the secret missions in Mission 4 will create a ranking leniency, with SBs in Mission 5 and 6 to carry over the leniency to Mission 7. I only tested this like once or twice so I'm not even sure but yeah.

The main reason why I'm thinking this through is quite simply, yes, I am doing a SB DMD! run after this with a fresh Dante(I also happen to obtain two Japanese copies of DMC1 and I might do another Hard mode run on that copy to show the differences, and I'm going to run DMD! on the Japanese copy), and I would hate it so much if I did all of the work to SB Mission 3(which I have done before with a maxed Dante) and end up not able to SB Mission 7.

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#18 Post by BerN » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:58 pm

Five posts before the one you're quoting, you'll see I SB'd M4 without doing any SM. (to anyone who might be reading, we're talking about this)
Unfortunately, as you can read in the thread I overwrote the save file and had to do everything again, finishing with the time and orbs you quoted.

Now, since the requirements for M4 are
Joch's FAQ wrote:Time: 4:00 (extended to a minimum of 9:00 if you include the 3 Secret Missions)
Orbs: 550
Damage: 0%
I must've done the three SM, considering my time was 06:28. Which probably really happened because
Me wrote:I decided to catch as many Yellow orbs as I could ( though, I'm not gonna catch them all )
I really do not remember at all how'd it go, this was 3 years ago after all.

So, I either did the 3 SM and got a legit SB, or I only did the 2 easier ones (the phantombabies ones) and got a lenient SB, which I accidentally regarded as a legit one -- something I highly doubt.

At any rate, your theory on what triggers M7's leniency is interesting. And looking at my run, it fits*. Though, I did have a legit SB there (M7). So maybe what makes it "impossible" to SB M7 is determined at the start of the game, but by having a lenient ranking carry over to M7 you could bypass its "impossibility". What do you think?
I also believe that the proper way to get a SB in Mission 7 is to do the secret mission.
Yes, I have thought about that, too. Thing is, doing the SM on M7 is probably close to impossible if you still want to do it under 2 mins. Alexx was messing around with an emulated DMC1 with savestates and whatnot sometime ago and he was going to try to do the SM withtin 2 mins... Dunno if he ever did it.

*It fits with my lenient SB carrying over to M16, for example. Or with me having a lenient M4 after SBing M3. Because if SMs are what trigger lenient rankings, then there's no way to avoid them if you are going to SB M3 -- its SB being mandatory and all.
So a definitive experiment, I guess, would be to do an SB run, but only S-rank M3 so that one never does any SM, and see if it's still possible to have a lenient M7.

ANYWAY, there's still something I want to check. brb

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#19 Post by BerN » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:13 pm

OKAY GREAT

Check this guy's run out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xluPezC7_8

He didn't do M4's SM and got an impossible to SB M7. So it also fits with your theory, Omega, seeing as he got legit SBs in both M5 and M6.

In his M8 comments I appear and get M7's TL wrong, lol.

EDIT: Well, and it seems you can disregard that M3 experiment thing, since Royal still got an impossible M7. I guess, then, only M4's SM matter.

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#20 Post by BassOmegaX » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:29 pm

I was thinking that perhaps doing two or more secret missions in a mission gives more points or something. M16 also does similar things. I noticed my M17 and M18 are also lenient. But its kind of hard since theres only two missions with two or more SMs.

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